1748 replies to this topic

[maximus]

sau peugeot mai fiabil ca skoda? ciudat in alte topuri skoda e pe primele locuri ) parerea mea despre aceste topuri: pisch wasser

[vrajitorul din orz]

WD ca si JDP traieste exact din estimarile astea. Daca face estimarea gresit, da faliment. Asta e ca la prezicerea vremii: daca vrei sa stii cum o sa fie vremea in Florida la vara te uiti la preturile contractelor de portocale la bursa. Nimeni pe lumea asta nu stie mai bine ca astia 2 la ce s ate astepti de la o masina de marca X.

Acum evident trebuie sa se faca diferenta clara intre cum se fac clasamentele astea. WD plateste reparatiile, deci poate e si costul reparatiei inclus? asta ar justifica masinile mai de lux in coada. Ce inseamna probleme tehnice, un bec, un stergator, un bloc motor? JDP face estimarea pe baza unui sondaj de opinie, acolo evident e si un factor subiectiv. Si in general se refera la modele noi. Astia au treaba cu masinile mai vechi de 3 ani, adica iesite din garantie de fabrica. E evident ca topurile o sa difere.

[maximus]

jdp nu masoara fiabilitatea. Cel putin in multe tari in CHESTIONARUL ALA (deci e un chestionar) fiabilitatea cica e cotata cu 20-30%

[valentin_iordan]

sau peugeot mai fiabil ca skoda? ciudat in alte topuri skoda e pe primele locuri ) parerea mea despre aceste topuri: pisch wasser

cu siguranta ca presa auto din Germania are alte topuri ...
asa ca Maximus poate sa fie mult mai putin ofuscat de acest atentat la afinitatile personale.

[maximus]

culmea ca tot de englezi era vorba nu de nemti eu nu am incredere decat in statisticile de service gen adac..

[valentin_iordan]

man orice sondaj ..top..sau clasament... este mai mult sau mai putin influentat de cine ..cum ..cand ...
nu cred ca exista topuri " curate " ...
toate aceste clasamente ne influenteaza in deciziile pe care le luam in domeniul auto ca si consumatori.

Aceasta postare a fost editata de canan17ro: 13 februarie 2007 - 11:52

[LaScurt]

Pentru cine nu nu �nţelege mecanismul acestui Reliability Index:

Firma Warranty Direct oferă garanţie extinsă pentru orice marcă (după expirarea garanţiei date de producător). Acel Reliability Index arată c�te reparaţii a trebuit să plătească Warranty Direct �n această perioadă de garanţie la fiecare 100 de maşini. Pe baza aceluiaşi reliability index, WD oferă garanţie la un anumit preţ. De exemplu, dacă ai un Jeep, sigur te va costa mai mult garanţia extinsă dec�t dacă ai avea o Mazda, fiindcă WD �şi asumă de 6 ori mai multe riscuri.

Mie mi se pare foarte obiectivă metoda, �nsă are 3 puncte slabe:
- nu este o statistică completă, �n sensul că nu toată lumea �şi ia garanţie extinsă.
- WD nu vinde garanţii extinse dec�t �n SUA şi UK, deci nu acoperă toată lumea auto.
- nu reflectă realitatea la zi - garanţia extinsă o iei după expirarea garanţiei date de producător. Deci, acest top reflectă realitatea de acum 2, 3, 4, 5... ani

Ca o confirmare a celor 3 puncte slabe de mai sus, mă uitam, de exemplu, la Hyundai că sunt doar 2 modele luate �n calcul - Accent (�ntre 1994 şi 2000) şi Coupe (intre 1996 şi 2001). Normal că �n acest top nu se găseşte vreun Hyundai fabricat după 2002, fiindcă el �ncă se află �n cei 5 ani garanţie oferiţi de producător. Nu mai vorbesc de SUA, unde producătorii oferă chiar şi 10 ani garanţie.

Pentru mai multe detalii, Reliability Index, �nsă bazele de date nu sunt actualizate, �ncă se referă la datele din 2006.

�n opinia mea, acest top nu foloseşte la nimic dacă �ţi iei maşină nouă. Dacă �nsă optezi pentru un sh, mi se pare un indicator excelent. Oricum, lumea nu mai e ce-a fost. Mitul germanei cu x sute de mii de km reali, diesel, apune, indiferent de c�t de greu este de acceptat şi răsare mitul japonezei.

Aceasta postare a fost editata de LaScurt: 13 februarie 2007 - 10:47

[CrisArkgoth]

mitul japonezelor mi se pare la fel de vechi ca si cel al germanelor, nu vad cum rasare tocmai acum. dar pana una alta tot din experienta personala si ce vad pe la prieteni m-as lua. si vazand mitsubishi pe locul 4 cand stiu persoana cu lancer 2.0 care dupa 3000 km se destrama la propriu si ma uit la skoda mea cu 125 000 km la care nu am schimbat decat consumabile pana acum, stau pe ganduri cand imi apare mitsubishi in top. de altfel imi e la fel de clar ca toate-s o apa si un pamant si nu mai poti face diferente majore intre marci sau modele la fiabilitate, pana la urma nevoiele si nebuniile fiecaruia dicteaza.
e totusi amuzant cu toata lumea critica masinile made in italy chiar daca nu au avut asa ceva, din punctul meu de vedere sunt la fel de fiabile ca si restul, asta fara vorbit din auzite.

Aceasta postare a fost editata de CrisArkgoth: 13 februarie 2007 - 11:37

[MikeTekRacing]

nu e adevarat, in ro exista doar mitul german

[Maxy]

Mitul japonez nu este deloc mit,am avut doua in familie s-au comportat exemplar.

[CrisArkgoth]

in ro poate exista doar mitul german, asta fiind "plebea"
maxy : asa pot sa zic si eu de germane si italiene, NAH

[Artanis]

Fiabilitatea japoneza nu este deloc un mit, o spune orice statistica existenta...

[masterblaster]

We brought you news a few days ago about Zagato's big plans to revive the long-dormant Diatto nameplate with an exclusive coachbuilt sportscar, and the Italian design house has now released an image of its creation. The Diatto Ottovu Zagato will be unveiled at the Geneva auto show in just a few weeks, powered by an anticipated supercharged V8 sourced from Maserati.

Diatto is one of those brands that history forgot, a century-old Italian carmaker that shut down in 1929. The company was founded in 1905, and on the occasion of its 100th anniversary, albeit two years late, two (evidently well-heeled) collectors commissioned Zagato to build them something special � an undertaking not unlike the Ferrari 575 GTZ, or the niche to which the overlords at Porsche would like to relegate Bugatti.

Like the previous 575 project, which recalled the iconic 250 GTZ, the Diatto Ottovu Zagato was realized to recall the coachbuilt motor-carriages Zagato re-bodied for Diatto some 85 years ago.

[adrian_r5]

Renault solicita ajutoare de stat de la guvernul Romaniei

Guvernul Romaniei va negocia cu societatea Renault, in cadrul unui memorandum, acordarea unor ajutoare in vederea deschiderii unui centru de tehnologie in localitatea Titu, a declarat, miercuri, Sebastian Vladescu, ministrul Finantelor. Solicitarile grupului Renault vizeaza, in primul rand, dezvoltarea infrastructurii in zona respectiva, a adaugat Vladescu.

De asemenea, in cadrul memorandumului exista prevederi referitoare la calendarul de realizare, prevederi privind stimularea fortei de munca, masuri fiscale de incurajare si masuri legate de protectia mediului.

Ministrul Finantelor a afirmat ca aceste ajutoare de stat se vor incadra in conceptul european de ajutor de stat, se vor acorda in conformitate cu regulamentele europene si cu acordul Comisiei Europene.

continuarea:

http://www.hotnews.r...ul-Romaniei.htm

[the1]

Daimler and Chrysler to divorce?

DaimlerChrysler boss Dieter Zetsche is studying a proposal to sell-off the company�s troubled US arm Chrysler.

After newspaper reports published in Germany today (14 February) suggested that DC was considering dumping the Chrysler Group, confirmation of the possibility came from DaimlerChrysler just hours ago.

"Today the supervisory board will reach a decision on the subject of restructuring the Chrysler Group. The board of management intends to consider other, more far-reaching strategic options with partners in order to support and facilitate the program," the company said.

"No option is being excluded in the interest of arriving at the best possible solution for the Chrysler Group and DaimlerChrysler as a whole."

Citing supervisory board member sources, German newspaper Handelsblatt this morning claimed that Zetsche has commissioned a US investment bank to examine all possible options for Chrysler.

Zetsche is expected to announce losses of over $1billion in 2006 for the American group of car brands that includes Chrysler, Jeep and Dodge.

"Everything is possible," a source told Handelsblatt, adding "it is more likely that something drastic will happen than that nothing will happen."

The news comes as Zetsche prepares to unveil the latest restructuring plan for Chrysler, some six years after DCX's initial attempt to haul the Chrysler Group back into profitability, and nine years after Daimler-Benz�s takeover of Chrysler.

The report claims that Zetsche is looking into all options for Chrysler, including a partial or complete sale of the company.

Also among the possibilities is the formation of an alliance with another car maker. Speculation within automotive industry financial circles has linked Chrysler with Renault in recent weeks, though both sides deny that talks have taken place.

Another alternative before Zetsche is floating Chrysler on the New York stock exchange.

[masterblaster]

Un roman a castigat Peugeot Design Competition! Felicitari Mihai Panaitescu! :blow:
Si am mai avut un finalist, am uitat numele conceptului, dar stiu ca avea 3 roti si era portocaliu

Flux Wins Peugeot Design Competition






Driven by the desire to design a car that would give an enjoyable experience to each of its occupants, Mihai Panaitescu, a Romanian design student studying in Turin, created the Flux, the winning project in the fourth on-line Peugeot Design Competition. The runners up in second and third places were Njooy (Wesley Saikawa from Brazil � aged 27) and Allscape (Gustavo Ferrero from Venezuela � aged 29).

At 20 years old, the youngest ever winner of the Peugeot Design Competition, Mihai submitted a project that fits in perfectly with its environment. The Flux is a fun vehicle that suits a variety of lifestyles.

The Flux design is very much at home in an urban environment. Its compact size makes it easy to use. Its classic design, combined with a sporty, modern feel, blends in perfectly with the urban landscape. The sophisticated engine ensures a quiet driving experience, while the Flux stands out without being ostentatious.

Mihai�s Flux is also a pleasure to drive on the open road. Mounted on large wheels, the Flux provides excellent postural comfort for its occupants, wraparound seats with multiple settings, and is ergonomic � the driver has ready access to all essential functions � and is good looking. Its very simple design creates a feeling of serenity regardless of the distance to be covered.

Flux is also a hi-tech vehicle with a non-polluting fuel cell engine, in-car communication facilities and high-performance lighting, based on LED technology.

The Flux came out on top as the P.L.E.A.S.E. car due to its originality, the quality of its presentation, and its consistency with the theme of the competition.
The design competition

For the fourth edition of the design competition, Peugeot invited designers to submit their vision of a car with the ability to please: P.L.E.A.S.E. Over and above designing a car that would please in a purely abstract sense, they were asked to comply with a set of precise specifications: imagine a type of car that affords pure driving Pleasure through its Lightness and its Efficiency while remaining Accessible through its Simplicity and Environmentally-friendly in its design.

This theme met with a large response, with 4,029 projects submitted to the www.peugeot-concours-design.com website, setting a new record for the number of projects; for the record, the third edition generated 3,800 projects.

The Flux project came out top at the end of a three-stage selection process, between October 2006 and February 2007. Initially, 30 projects were short-listed by members of the Peugeot Style Centre. These were then put forward for an online vote, to determine a list of 10 finalists. The prize winner and runners-up were selected subsequently by a panel of judges chaired by Fr�d�ric Saint-Geours, the Director General of Automobiles Peugeot.

For this fourth edition of the design competition, even better prizes were on offer. The winning project will not only be built as a full scale model, in the form of a concept car to be exhibited at the next Frankfurt Motor Show, but will also feature as the star of a future game on the Xbox 360. The winner also receives a cheque for �6,000, with the second and third placed designers receiving �3,000 and �2,000 respectively.
A few statistics

For its fourth edition, the competition broadened its appeal with more than 4,000 projects submitted to the www.peugeot-concours-design.com site between October and December. The number of projects was higher compared to the previous edition, +5% compared to 2004 (3,800 projects), thereby setting a new record for the number of entries.

The competition broadened its international scope with 113 countries represented compared to 107 for the previous edition. 70% of projects were submitted by designers from countries outside Western Europe.
More visits to www.peugeot-concours-design.com

This competition, held exclusively via the www.peugeot-concours-design.com web site, benefited greatly from the enthusiasm brought about by the theme. The online community generated by the design competition doubled compared to the previous edition, with a total of 34,000 members. More than 2 million pages were viewed in the course of 500,000 visits.

Lastly, with 116,000 votes polled on the Internet between 21 December and 23 January, visitors showed genuine enthusiasm for the projects on show, with an average of 3,400 votes registered per day.

The distribution of projects by geographical area shows that mainly European countries are represented, with a share of 51%. Most of the 10 projects voted for by Internet users were the work of designers originating from outside Western Europe.
From the designer:

My intention was to design a vehicle that pleases it's occupants in every way. It's versatility combined with it's sportiness and the ability to use it in different environments are in my opinion some of the vehicle's strong points. Either as an explorer of sandy beaches, sweeping mountain roads, or simply commuting in the city, the Flux concept embodies a vehicle that is made to please. It's dynamic shape and open air cockpit make it lively and fun to drive as the occupants are always in contact with their surroundings. The name Flux was inspired by the continuous change and flow of our daily lives during work and play. The shape also represents this flow with transitions through hard and smooth lines, between straight and curved all of which are characteristics of Peugeot. A relatively small car (3500cm long by 1650cm wide), it runs on a slim hydrogen power plant hidden in the back along with the tank mounted under the front bonnet. The hood and side body panels are made from plastic, polyurethane for the seats and aluminium for the mechanical parts. The main components such as the chassis and head protection are metal. Made up of simple body work (basic intersected volumes) the car is easily produced and accessible to everyone but most of all, it's fun to drive. Adding to this, the car is also a gaming hub thanks to the integrated Xbox 360 so P.L.E.A.S.E. hop in!!!

[Artanis]

Interesant, intr-adevar...Si am mai avut un loc 4, asa inteleg de-aici:
http://www.peugeot-c...rs/projet7.aspx

[masterblaster]

da....asa Liion se numea....portocaliu cu 3 roti
Bravo lor! :thumb:

[masterblaster]

Unique Lamborghini Murcielago LP640 Versace Auctioned








Over $500.000 raised

The one-of-a-kind Versace Lamborghini Murcielago LP640 Roadster took center stage among a star-studded charity auction event in Beverly Hills. Celebrity actress Sharon Stone, using her feminine mystique, heated up the bidding process on the super car to surpass half a million dollars and charmed the winning bidder, Vik Keuylian of Lamborghini Orange County, on stage in front of 600 VIP guests. Keuylian walked away with Stone's lipstick imprint on his face -- a token of her appreciation for his generous donation. Proceeds from the auction benefited Elton John's AIDS Foundation.

"It is remarkable that the finest Italian clothing icon, Versace; the sexiest actress, Sharon; and the champion of Italian super sports cars, Lamborghini; could collaborate together to generate a financial windfall for Elton John's medical research. We are glad we won the bid," Sossi Keuylian of Lamborghini Orange County (www.lamborghinioc.com) affirmed.

Stone was attired in a sensuous black Versace evening dress with chain detail augmenting her plunging neckline. Stone's dramatic dress matched the sexy scintillating Murcielago LP640 Roadster.

"The Versace Lamborghini Murcielago LP640 Roadster is representative of the ultra-distinct, fast and sexy Italian super car. It is unique because it is the one-and-only Lamborghini made to the custom tailored impeccable specifications of high-fashion designer, Versace," Vik Keuylian went on to explain how the interior enhancements added great value to the Versace Murcielago LP640 Roadster.

In addition to celebrity hosts Donatella Versace, Elton John, and Sharon Stone, others who actively supported the cause were Guns N' Roses, Prince, Jennifer Lopez, Marc Anthony, Eva Longoria, Naomi Campbell, Tyra Banks, Mischa Barton, Demi Moore, Ashton Kutcher, Cindy Crawford, Jada Pinkett-Smith, Drew Barrymore, Brooke Shields and Christina Ricci.

"It's incredible that all the celebrities compassionately came together to promote such a worthy cause. We are eager to do more celebrity charity events in the future," said Nora Keuylian, owner of Lamborghini Orange County. "Although this particular Lamborghini LP640 may be a collector's item, other Lamborghini models, the Gallardo and Murcielago are available for immediate delivery at our showroom in Orange County."

[maximus]

mare fas.. o asociere comerciala intre 2 branduri, masina ce va fi luata eventual ca investitie sau ca fita

[masterblaster]

More details about Honda's A-VTEC system


When Honda released information about the development of its Advanced VTEC (A-VTEC) system in September, we were looking forward to seeing how the new system would be employed in the next generation of Acuras and Hondas. The system will increase torque, power and fuel economy, all while oozing fewer emissions into the atmosphere. Good stuff, all of it.

Not much has been released since, but the variable valve timing obsessed folks over that the Temple of VTEC (TOV) came across a new patent filed by Honda entitled the "Variable valve actuation device." The setup is similar to BMW's Valvetronic system, by varying the lift and duration of the valves throughout the powerband, likely eliminating that abrupt, albeit entertaining, switch over to the hot lobes. It can be employed in both SOHC and DOHC applications and will likely find a home in the 2008 model Accord.

More power, more torque, less emissions, plus the option of a lightweight SOHC engine? Bring it.

[LaScurt]

LOL, a innebunit lupu':


Hyundai se arata de asemenea interesat de preluarea Chrysler
20 Februarie 2007


Grupul sud-coreean Hyundai Motor Co. este unul dintre potentialii clienti interesati de achizitionarea Chrysler, divizia DaimlerChrysler aflata in dificultate, a anuntat cotidianul britanic Sunday Times, citand surse neidentificate.

Conform articolului aparut in cotidianul britanic, Hyundai ar fi interesat de achizitia Chrysler, prin care ar castiga controlul asupra retelei de destributie in Statele Unite ale Americii a producatorului american.

Un purtator de cuvand al grupului sud-coreean a negat aceasta posibilitate, informeaza NewsIn. Surse familiare cu aceasta situatie au declarat vineri pentru Reuters ca General Motors se afla in discutii preliminare privind achizitia diviziei Chrysler sau a formarii unei aliante strategice cu o companie rivala, producatoare de automobile.

Cotidianul britanic The Sunday Times a anuntat ca banca de investitii americana JP Morgan isi va oferi serviciile de consiliere privind viitorului diviziei Chrysler, urmand a trimite in cursul acestei saptamani informatii potentialilor clienti, printre care se numara General Motors si Hyundai.

Dieter Zetsche, CEO al DaimlerChrysler, a anuntat in cursul saptamanii trecute ca va analiza toate optiunile privind filiala sa americana Chrysler, fiind luata in considerare chiar vinderea partiala sau totala a acesteia.

Precum grupurile Ford si General Motors, ceilalti doi mari producatori americani de automobile, Chrysler este profund afectat de concurenta producatorilor asiatici care acapareaza tot mai mult din piata americana.

In al treilea trimestru al 2006, Chrysler a inregistrat pierderi de 1,16 miliarde de euro, afectand profiturile constructorului Mercedes-Benz.

Potrivit analistilor, preluarea grupului Chrysler de catre GM risca sa complice eforturile de optimizare a activitatii ambelor companii, cu toate ca ar crea un gigant industrial cu o cota de aproape 40% din piata americana.

GM si DaimlerChrysler sunt implicate si intr-un joint venture cu BMW, pentru a dezvolta un sistem hibrid care va fi folosit la o viitoare versiune a masinii de teren Dodge Durango.

Sursa: wall-street.ro

[adrian_r5]

Skoda planuieste un model concurent pentru Dacia Logan


Producatorul ceh Skoda intentioneaza sa comercializeze un model care sa coste intre 7.000 si 8.000 euro, masina pe care sa o vanda pe piete cum ar fi Rusia, India sau China, a spus presedintele Skoda Auto intr-un interviu acordat luni cotidianului Hospodarske Noviny.

"Noua masina ar putea semana cu Logan-ul, dar ar putea fi mai mica", a declarat presedintele companiei Skoda Auto, Detlef Wittig. Costul masinii ar putea varia intre 7.000 si 8.000 euro (i9.192 - 10.505 dolari). Masina va fi vanduta in tari precum China, Rusia si India, dar Skoda nu a oferit detalii despre momentul lansarii.

Detlef Wittig a mai precizat ca �oamenii sunt orientati catre pret pe aceste piete. (...) Ei nu isi permit sa cheltuiasca sume mari de bani pentru o masina.�.

In prezent gama Skoda cuprinde patru modele: Fabia - clasa mica, Octavia - clasa medie, Superb - clasa mare si Roomster - masina de familie. Cel mai ieftin model este Fabia, cu preturi care pornesc de la 10.000 euro.


http://www.bloombiz....an--225587.html

[Artanis]

VentureOne 3-Wheel Hybird Promises 100MPH, 100MPG

Hybrid technology just got a little bit cooler with the unveiling of the Venture Vehicles VentureOne. This 3-wheel plug-in hybrid promises 0-60 times in under 6 seconds, a top speed of 100MPH, a range of 350 miles and a price tag south of $20,000.

The 1,200 pound VentureOne is classified as a motorcycle by the NHTSA since it features three wheels. And similar to a motorcycle, the passenger compartment of the VentureOne can tilt 45 degrees left or right when entering a corner. Venture Vehicles calls the system Dynamic Vehicle Control or DVC and it is currently in its 18th generation.

The hydro-mechanical DVC system uses a combination of the driver's input from the steering wheel and the tilting of the chassis to maintain balance and direction of travel. Chassis tilt is nominal at low vehicle speeds as the steering angle of the front wheel dictates the direction of travel. As speed increases, the angle of the front wheel is not a major factor in changing direction -- the driver's input is instead transferred to the tilt of the chassis which in turn provide direction change.

For propulsion, the hybrid versions of the VentureOne use a small gasoline engine, a 15kW (VentureOne e50) or 20 kW (VentureOne Q100) generator, two in-wheel 25 kW electric motors, a four gallon fuel tank and a 3 kWh lithium-ion battery. The all-electric Venture EV uses two 20 kW electric motors and a 17 kWh lithium-ion battery pack.

According to Venture Vehicle founder Ian Bruce, the lithium-ion batteries used in the VentureOne weigh only 45 pounds compared to the 900 pounds for the all-electric Tesla roadster.

The VentureOne e50 has a top speed of 100MPH, can run 0-60 in under 6 seconds and has a driving range of 350 miles. The VentureOne Q100 pushes the top speed to 120MPH with a 0-60 time of under 5 seconds. Range, however, drops to 300 miles. The all-electric VentureOne EV features a top speed of 75MPH, 0-60 time of 8 seconds and a range of 120 miles.

Prices are expected to range from $18,500 for the hybrid VentureOne e50 to $23,000 for the all-electric VentureOne EV.

[LaScurt]

Une fois de plus, les salari�s du Technocentre de Renault � Guyancourt sont effondr�s. Il y a trois semaines, ils organisaient une marche silencieuse pour deux de leurs coll�gues, qui venaient de se suicider. Et vendredi dernier, nouveau drame : un troisi�me employ� est retrouv� pendu � son domicile. Dans une lettre, l'homme de 38 ans �voque des conditions de travail devenues trop difficiles.
Trois suicides en 4 mois. La question s'impose : que se passe-t-il sur ce site des Yvelines ? Dans ce b�timent surnomm�e la Ruche, travaillent 12000 personnes. Ils pilotent la cr�ation des nouveaux mod�les du constructeur. Et depuis que les ventes battent de l'aile. La direction de Renault a mis la barre tr�s haute, 26 mod�les, dont 13 nouveaut�s, doivent imp�rativement voir le jour d'ici 2009.
Embarrass�e, la direction du groupe annonce de nouveaux dispositifs de management. "Nous sommes tr�s attrist�s par ce troisi�me d�c�s et ce nombre de cas de suicides nous pose beaucoup d'interrogations et renvoie chacun � sa part de responsabilit�" a-t-elle d�clar�.
En attendant une enqu�te a �t� ouverte par le parquet de Versailles pour rechercher d'�ventuelles infractions qui pourraient �tre en lien avec la mort du salari� et v�rifier ses conditions de travail.
Mais les syndicats de Renault vont encore plus loin. La CGT demande une expertise ind�pendante afin de "mettre en lumi�re les causes du mal vivre au Technocentre et dans l'ing�nierie tertiaire qui ont pu pousser certains salari�s � commettre l'irr�parable". Et la CFDT d�nonce, le "d�calage entre le discours de la direction et la r�alit� v�cue des salari�s" soumis � une "forte charge de travail".
Un premier salari� s'�tait jet� du cinqui�me �tage du b�timent principal du Technocentre le 20 octobre, et un second s'est noy� le 22 janvier

Astept cu interes ca dl Carlos Ghosn sa faca acelasi lucru de ciuda ca s-a scos taxa de inmatriculare.

Aceasta postare a fost editata de LaScurt: 21 februarie 2007 - 04:21